Infosphere:Conference Table/Old format

The Conference Table is for discussion of the Infosphere, and proposals for new ideas. For information about upcoming changes to the Infosphere, see Current events.

See Conference Table from before September 2007 (archive) for older discussions...

Infoboxes
Time to vote (since we haven't had one yet) -  Humorbot 0.4   12:04, 10 June 2007 (PDT)

Svip's character infobox
 Humorbot 0.4

And now the Episode infobox

For Svip's

 *  Humorbot 0.4  [[Image:Planet_Express_Logo.png|20px]]
 * Quolnok

At the momment I'd say Svip's is better but it could use a bit more padding outside, and a few pixels extra between the columns. - Quolnok 19:09, 12 June 2007 (PDT)
 * All these things are fixable. But what specifically do you mean by "padding outside"?  Margin or padding?  They are two different things.  I shall look into the extra pixels between the columns. --SvipTalk 05:58, 13 June 2007 (PDT)

Padding, just a bit more whitespace to prevent text from getting too close to the infobox's border. - Quolnok 06:13, 13 June 2007 (PDT)
 * That is margin actually. But I can do it. --SvipTalk 08:01, 13 June 2007 (PDT)

Which is padding again? could have swarn margin was line thickness (that is border). Anyway, looks good. The {name} variable can probably be replaced with the system variable because the episode articles take precidence over other topics with the same name, that's what is used in the old navbars. On that note, we can probably leave the old navbars there on long pages. The pressence of exactly one navbar forces scrolling towards it for navigation, the presence of two cuts down scroll distance for half of the people... but that's another discussion ...they do have matching colour schemes. - Quolnok 20:08, 13 June 2007 (PDT)
 * For your CSS information, border is line thickness (actually that is border-size), padding is the space between the border and the content of an object, while margin is the space between the border and the surrounding objects. --SvipTalk 04:26, 14 June 2007 (PDT)
 * Also! I despite the use of , cause it is not good Wiki practice to rely on the system to get it right.  Sometimes, the article name may be different from what would be good to go in a name area and then what do you do (except perhaps having the "name" tag as an optional tag, but that would require the ParserFunctions, BUDDY!?)? --SvipTalk 05:14, 14 June 2007 (PDT)
 * *runs off* --Buddy 12:09, 16 June 2007 (PDT)
 * So, uh, we're going ahead with this right? - Quolnok 15:52, 24 November 2007 (PST)
 * Yes, but as you can see, I am constantly punking Buddy for not getting le extension, when I get it, I shall go nuts and start fixing tonnes of articles o_o It is going to magically crazy! Just you wait...  however, I don't blame him.  A life without Internet at home?  How horrible! --SvipTalk 15:54, 24 November 2007 (PST)
 * I know I suck. Give me one extension that is most important to you, and I'll get it next time I'm online, assuming I can figure it out. The real trouble with my limited online time is that, although I can make changes, should there be a problem, I rarely have the time to work on the solution. But when I have internet at home, I can work on the problems till they're fixed (not to mention, some IM'img with someone who knows better). So, like I said, give me your top priority, and, in a thousand years, I'll get right on it. --Buddy 20:12, 24 November 2007 (PST)
 * The most important is the ParserFunction extension. With that, I can do a lot of work.  I shall inform you of my next important extension when that is done.  I shall leave you a notice on your own talk page about how to install it (so I am sure you see it). --SvipTalk 05:14, 25 November 2007 (PST)

Songs
There are so many songs in Futurama and yet no articles on it so for my next suggestions we should write about the songs -  Humorbot 0.4   10:40, 12 June 2007 (PDT)
 * I propose we call it "Soundtrack" and then includes a list of songs. It may only be about the songs, but "Soundtrack" is simply a better name. --SvipTalk 10:49, 12 June 2007 (PDT)
 * we also should include the lyrics -  Humorbot 0.4  [[Image:Planet_Express_Logo.png|20px]] 11:29, 12 June 2007 (PDT)
 * Sounds good to me. I think I saw Buddy suggest this on a talk page somewhere, anyway, we can link to the lyrics from relevant episode's trivia sections and/or infoboxes. a number of episodes already have lyrics, which can be snipped into the new page. - Quolnok 18:48, 12 June 2007 (PDT)

i like the idea dr zoidberg 14

feature nominations
Vote and nominate, people. - Quolnok 18:54, 12 June 2007 (PDT)

Upgrade bugs
Just cleaning up this section, we don't need to remember old errors. We are not debuggers, are we? Seriously though, if you find any more, this is the place to notice about system/software bugs in general. --SvipTalk 13:53, 14 July 2007 (PDT)

400!
Wasn't to long ago when I wrote a section on this page about reaching 300 articles well now we're up to 400 and still growing. By the way does this count to be added to our news section which has benn updated twice recently -  Humorbot 0.4   07:14, 7 July 2007 (PDT)

Extensions!
Now that we got the new software, we can have extensions, hurrah! \o/ I suggest the following Extensions:
 * Extension:Cite - so we can make references to other pages, news articles, and what have you.
 * Extension:Parser function extensions - this actually a bit of extensions, but we just need the standard and the parser functions. This is the extension I have been crying about.

You can find these and many more at Extension Matrix. --SvipTalk 11:56, 8 July 2007 (PDT)
 * I'll work vigorously on those when I get a full day off. Should be tuesday, but I won't make any promises. --Buddy 15:49, 8 July 2007 (PDT)

Infosphere Forums
Hello, you may not like this, but... I started some forums for the Infosphere here. I found this great IPB host without ads or anything. These forums are actually similar to my ATHFWiki forums actually.... with some differences, like no Adult Swim/Television category because Futurama won't always be on [AS]. Electricbolttalk
 * I don't want to be picky, but that's an awful lot of forums for such a small amount of users. Suppose you could delete some of the more redundant forums (e.g. just a single video forum)?  Also, where is the information about the film titles?  Got a link?! --SvipTalk 15:13, 10 July 2007 (PDT)
 * Tell me exactly what forums you'd like me to delete. Please. Don't tell me here, could you join the forums and tell me in the "Rants" part of the forums? If you don't feel like it, well, post it here.
 * There, done. --SvipTalk 17:34, 10 July 2007 (PDT)
 * Alright, I changed them. Does anyone have a logo I can use for the forums saying like "Infosphere Forums"?

Range blocks
So, I finally looked into range blocks, while there is binary math involed (which I'm able to do) if you don't have the CDIR range of spam companies, we can get the CDIR info from here and after confirming the website associated with the IP is not just an ISP we use the CDIR value we've found. I'll be using the "Block anonymous users only" and "Prevent account creation" options. - Quolnok 21:15, 10 July 2007 (PDT)

Infosphere Forums 2
Because of ads being added to IPBfree.com, the forums have been relocated to here, a phpBB kind-of forum.
 * Well, on the "old" forums, I suggest you remove all the forums and only leave one behind, which states that the forums have moved to the new link. --SvipTalk 05:49, 14 July 2007 (PDT)

Our competition
Our competition, which includes two other wiki's. The community sides in the community portal does work with the same goal. We work to collect all information Futurama, in an objective unbiased (except for the fact that we love the show, so I guess we are biased). But yet, we are the fifth result on Google when searching for futurama wiki. In fact, the best competition we have is Wikipedia, which I am afraid is doing some better jobs on some issues. Also because they have all the delicious extensions. Yum yum. My point is... it has been awfully quiet lately, and also by the spambots. Either we did something efficient, or they are taking a break. But it seems only the regular editors are the one who views this wiki. So uh, we need to spread the word more efficiently.

Also, I'd like permission to edit CSS and Javascript/HTML, please. (you knew this was coming) --SvipTalk 13:52, 14 July 2007 (PDT)
 * Also, if I may add, this wiki does not appear to have an article on The Matt Groening Community Wiki. --SvipTalk 14:03, 14 July 2007 (PDT)
 * I just searched for Futurama wiki on google and now were 4th yeh, not much improvement but still -  Humorbot 0.4  [[Image:Planet_Express_Logo.png|20px]] 13:54, 25 November 2007 (PST)

New style proposal
I am proposing a general style for all episode articles. The "Additional information" section should be split up in the following sections: "Trivia" (applies to anything that doesn't go in Continuity and Cultural References), "Continuity" (references to other episodes of the show, lose the "Fast forward" and "Rewind" sections), "Cultural References" (mostly known as "Outside references", perhaps we could call it "Popular culture references" instead), "Goofs" (refers to mistakes, both in continuity and others), "Cast" or "Characters" and "Credits". That makes 6 sections at maximum for the "Additional information" section in an episode article. And let's also write "additional information" as it is more correct than "info". --SvipTalk 16:32, 15 July 2007 (PDT)

References to Futurama in Popular Culture
Shouldn't we have an article about this? I searched but couldn't find... Anyway, I've uploaded two pics, here and here, which belong in that sort of place. ~ Xan42 {talk to me} 06:24, 2 September 2007 (PDT)
 * Started the article: In popular culture. --SvipTalk 06:37, 2 September 2007 (PDT)

Creating videos?
I know this might not be answered, I know how to create pictures with Intervideo, but is there anyway you can make videos like that?

Number of Images
Why does the number of images say there is only images? Shouldn't there be like 900-1,000 images? The last time I checked, there were more than 700 images.
 * That variable was added after the upgrade, and thus was nullified upon the upgrade, and has remained so since, despite pictures uploaded since has been added to it. It would require a manual count and a manual fix in the database. --SvipTalk 23:12, 2 September 2007 (PDT)

Drastic measures!
Lately, this wiki has been appearing rather weak. Nothing new is really being done. I understand that Buddy has a lot to do, but it isn't optimal that our only person with access to the fileserver doesn't have access to the Internet. Secondly, we have been under serious spam attacks lately, I propose that for a short while, we won't allow any unregistered members to edit articles. I haven't worked on my bot in a while, but hopefully I will get back to that soon. --SvipTalk 03:49, 11 September 2007 (PDT)
 * I agree. - Quolnok 04:52, 11 September 2007 (PDT)
 * In case Buddy needs to know how to do that, he must add this to the LocalSettings.php file:

$wgGroupPermissions['*']['read'] = true; $wgGroupPermissions['*']['edit'] = false;
 * The 'read' part is rather optional, but it is just to make sure they can still read them. The '*' group is a pseudo group for none registered users.  Also, edit the MediaWiki:Sitenotice page to make this notice appear on the top of every page.  --SvipTalk 06:28, 11 September 2007 (PDT)
 * I'd really like to get rid of all the spammers. Can we either do this or can someone suggest some IP ranges to blank? - Quolnok 04:06, 5 October 2007 (PDT)
 * If it gets too out of hand we could ban Ip's completely at least for a while, hopefully the spambots will disappear and we can let IP's edit again -  Humorbot 0.4  [[Image:Planet_Express_Logo.png|20px]] 09:44, 5 October 2007 (PDT)
 * "If it gets too out of hand"? I'm fairly sure it already is. Range blocking is only good for "small" groups of 65,000ish, which would mean doing 65,000ish range blocks to block everyone, the IPs mostly don't fit valid ranges, so we'll have to wait for Buddy to block them. - Quolnok 18:36, 6 October 2007 (PDT)

Block O'Clock?
I'm not sure if this kind of thing needs a vote, but if it does, I'd like something done to prevent the IPs spamming now please. It's beyond my Sysop powers to change the php files. - Quolnok 18:45, 6 October 2007 (PDT)


 * Quolnok

SORRY
You have no idea how much it pains me to let this place sit without its benevolent father for so long. I am in the midst of a deal which will get me internet at home (and thus daily interaction from me!), but it won't be for another month or so. I'm working on that php dealy right now, though. --Buddy 21:42, 6 October 2007 (PDT) [update]: Seems to have worked, though I didn't do the Sitestatus thingy, or whatever it was. But yeah, unlogged-in people are now unable to edit. Thanks for informing me how to do it. --Buddy 21:50, 6 October 2007 (PDT)
 * Woohoo! Now things should calm right down spam wise. - Quolnok 23:10, 6 October 2007 (PDT)

Wiki page contents
Does anyone know how to take the page contents box off a page?
 * Which page? - Quolnok 23:08, 29 September 2007 (PDT)

Deleted Scenes
hey guys i was thinking maybe we could have a section with deleted senes for each episode with a detailed sypnoses for each scene i am probbly going to be voted down but just a sugjestion dr zoidberg 14

Sounds actually pretty good we could just add them on to the additional info section of the episodes -  Humorbot 0.4   07:43, 10 October 2007 (PDT)

Merchandise
Hey, I was thinking we should maybe include info on Futurama merchandise as well as the fiction? Some suggestions: I got this idea from the Transformers wikia, which obviously is much more closely connected with toys than Futurama, but still thought it might be a good idea. Thoughts? SwitChar 07:35, 21 October 2007 (PDT)
 * Sections on action figures, statues and other toys and such in character articles
 * Similar sections on merchandise in articles on objects, products or animals, like sections on merch incarnations of the PE ship, Slurm or Brain slugs.
 * Articles on certain lines of toys or merchandise like shirts/clothing, the retro tin wind-ups, games etc.
 * I don't know about having it in the articles. They're filled with extraneous info as it is, and any more may burst them! But it really depends on how in-depth the info is, I guess. If it's just a quick "There's a toy of this thing" and a screenshot, that could easily be added... But if it's a detailed description and examination and critical review and notes on all points of articulation, then they probably need their own article (or an article for all merch, each thing with its own section). --Buddy 13:23, 21 October 2007 (PDT)

i agree i think we should have an article for all that stuff dr zoidberg 14

Additional categories for episodes/comics
I'm thinking about puting the episodes and comics into further categories, something along the lines of "Category:Stories Focusing on Zoidberg" or "Category:Plots Focusing on Fry" It would be limited to primary and (prominent) secondary characters who are the focus of either the A or B plot. Episodes like the Anthologies have 3 A plots and Three Hundred Big Boys probably just has a lot of B plots. - Quolnok 22:07, 26 October 2007 (PDT)
 * Sounds good and for Three Hundred Big Boys we would have to just leave the category on that -  Humorbot 0.4  [[Image:Planet_Express_Logo.png|20px]] 02:23, 27 October 2007 (PDT)

nice idea Dr zoidberg 14
 * Let's keep the name syntax like this "A/B plot focusing on ". Let's make an article called Types of plots where the different types of plots are explained.  Also, can't we make season/series categories?  E.g. "Season 1 episodes". --SvipTalk 15:01, 27 October 2007 (PDT)
 * Did you mean two seperate categories for A and B plots? Sure we'll just have a see also within the category page pointing to B and A plots for the character respectively. I think we can do the Season X episodes too. Also the plot categories will need to be sub categories of something, probably episodes, media and/or comics because it will be used for all three, I'd say Media. Also comics generally don't have B plots, except Six Characters In Search Of A Story, which is the same sort of thing as Three Hundred Big Boys. I think I'll do some of season one. - Quolnok 18:13, 27 October 2007 (PDT)
 * Well, they're mostly done now, excluding a few later comics I don't want more spoilers for (they're not in Australia yet), there were a few I wasn't completely sure about but they're probably right. - Quolnok 18:52, 19 November 2007 (PST)

A new shirt for Buddy
Hooray! And I'm pretty sure it's legit, since it has a tiny copyright notice. I know that's not a 100% sure way to tell, but hey. I was just so excited when I saw it. I couldn't resist buying it. --Buddy 20:30, 27 October 2007 (PDT)

Bender Brewer
Awesome! Just stumbled on this. --Buddy 20:34, 1 November 2007 (PDT)

Stumbled on this now as well. Perhaps we should have a section for "finds" or something similar. --Buddy 15:48, 18 November 2007 (PST)


 * Most of that looks like a sort of Fan Art. While I can probably never get used to fan art (careless of what fan art it is of), because I find it not to be the real thing, we might have a section for it.  However, the question in thus, what should we let in, and what shouldn't we?  I mean, if you go to deviantart and search for Futurama, you get tonnes of results.  --SvipTalk 23:31, 18 November 2007 (PST)

Chanukah Zombie
I has uploaded picture of what I believe is the Chanukah Zombie. Should we wait until the premier of BBS to update it's article? ~ Xan42 {talk to me} 07:41, 19 November 2007 (PST)
 * More importantly, where did you get that screenshot? --SvipTalk 10:19, 19 November 2007 (PST)
 * It probably is the right character based on who he's with and the symbols on his.. TIE Fighter?.. but unless we know it's definately him and where the image is from, we can't say it is. - Quolnok 18:26, 19 November 2007 (PST)
 * Okay, I admit, I have gotten my hands on the film prematurely, but I am still ordering the film and paying for it (which I already have) so I guess that makes it somewhat okay. And I can confirm that it is him.  Indeed, there are much more screens of him, and he clearly states he is who is guess to be.  And yes it is a TIE Fighter.  Also, at the end of the film, its production code is as follows; #5ACV01, #5ACV02, #5ACV03, #5ACV04.  However, I shall not be writing any plot information until the film is released. --SvipTalk 02:41, 20 November 2007 (PST)

The screenshot came from here. ~ Xan42 {talk to me} 06:06, 21 November 2007 (PST)

Yahoo Trailer
The Yahoo trailer contains the following email addresses: Zoidberg@freemail.web awong79@marslink.web and bender@ilovebender.com The only one that registers as having a server is ilovebender.com anyone gonna email him? Also, that probably confirms Amy's birth year. - Quolnok 18:47, 19 November 2007 (PST)

The Films
Let's talk about the films. So far, we are getting a release soon of the first one. However, I hate to admit, but yes, it is already leaked and wild on the Internet. While I do not endorse it, I could simply not wait. So yes, I have watched it. While I will reveal as little of the plot as possible before the film is released. I can tell the following "hard data":

The production code for the film is not XACV01, it is 5ACV01, 5ACV02, 5ACV03, 5ACV04, clearly making the production code for the four episodes it is supposed to be cut into.

Yes, the film has a title caption. And most appropriately it is "It just won't stay dead!", which I suggest as a quote on the front page. That is all for now.

P.S. Don't think I am not getting a real copy of the film, I have already preordered it, so there. I am a honest guy, just a very impatient honest guy. --SvipTalk 02:57, 20 November 2007 (PST)
 * That production code does make more sense. I'm holding out for the release date, the Xth of Y, 200Z. - Quolnok 05:16, 20 November 2007 (PST)

where can you watch it (i also preorderd it so dont think im not doing my part) p.s send me an email if you dont want any one else to know at hwrempel@shaw.ca dr zoidberg 14


 * I have already reserved my copy on Amazon. I see no reason not to post advanced details on the Bender's Big Score page--as long as a spoiler alert is included for people like me who are waiting for the movie to arrive in a mailbox near me. Almost every other show-centric wiki posts advance info on upcoming episodes, and I see this as being no different. But I won't read it until after I watch my copy of the movie. And I won't seek out the internet version. Also, while I was on Amazon, I ordered the 2008 calendar. Hooray Futurama. --Buddy 14:04, 22 November 2007 (PST)
 * Well, I understand your reason, and respect them. Obviously, otherwise you probably ban me or something.  But since you say so, I shall write the plot outline.  However, when you have watched it, there are many discussions to be had. --SvipTalk 16:17, 22 November 2007 (PST)
 * I will never ban for watching pirated material. HOwever, this is not the place to discuss how to attain illegal material (pirated Futurama or otherwise). That would be a bannable offense. Not because I have a moral objection to it (you should see my music collection), but because the site could get in real legal trouble and get shut down if stuff like that started going on here. --Buddy 16:21, 22 November 2007 (PST)

sory dr zoidberg 14

how are they going to make it into eps any way will they take an act and make into one ep will they have diferent pepoles difrent perspectives or what dr zoidberg 14
 * We simply do not know. They may even add some scenes not seen in the films.  Our best bet is to sit back and wait.  --SvipTalk 09:57, 23 November 2007 (PST)
 * *Pleased but sticky* Someone put it on a website stream, there's this program I use to meander about the internet and it somewhat randomly got foisted on me. I tried to hold out (indefinitely, I might add) for the release (for a day or so after finding it), but, well, I couldn't resist. I saw it, I will still eventually buy it as soon as it comes out, whenever that is. Also, it's very hot here. - Quolnok 22:17, 27 November 2007 (PST)
 * Sounds a lot like StumbleUpon, which is exactly how I found it. Stumbling blindly around the internet is fun. --Buddy 13:39, 2 December 2007 (PST)

Not big new for everyone else but now I've seen it - <span style="font-family:Dungeon,Andy,cursive;color:#ddf;"> Humorbot 0.4   13:13, 30 November 2007 (PST)
 * As have I, now that it arrived! Commentaries, special features, scripts... awesome! --Buddy 13:39, 2 December 2007 (PST)

Redirects
I know we have debated redirects before, and Buddy said good for them cause it would bring more users. However. I am wondering where the limit goes. If I type "1ACV01" on Wikipedia, I get the first episode of Futurama. Should we not redirect all the production and broadcast codes to episodes? So if I cannot remember the episode's name, I can get to it easily by knowing its "id". --SvipTalk 10:18, 23 November 2007 (PST)
 * Well, those aren't going to be needed for anything other than the episodes, so there's no reason that I can see to not do it. - Quolnok 15:37, 23 November 2007 (PST)
 * Yeah, I see no problem. But you're weird. I'll never know the production code and not the title. I only know titles. The other way 'round seems odd to me. Oh, well. I can name any episode within the first thirty seconds, usually much much less. Except "Where no Fan has Gone Before"--but that one's easy, since it's the title caption as well... ;) --Buddy 12:51, 24 November 2007 (PST)

Conference table cleanup
Also, isn't it time we clean up this article a bit. Some of the discussions here are rather old. If we don't want to delete, make an archive. It is better for the overview, and better for the server. --SvipTalk 10:18, 23 November 2007 (PST)

i agree dr zoidberg 14
 * Yep, probably needs cleaning. I can't be bothered right now, I think I'll go vote (election, yay). - Quolnok 15:41, 23 November 2007 (PST)
 * omg :O John Howard lost! Woo, Kevin Rudd!  Just if the Labor party could spell "labour".  Anyway, I would like Buddy's acknowledgement before I or someone else go through it. --SvipTalk 04:04, 24 November 2007 (PST)


 * I would say anything that hasn't been responded to or edited in three months or so could be archived. Something like that. Unless anyone has other suggestions...? --Buddy 12:54, 24 November 2007 (PST)
 * Done... well somewhat... probably need to do it again, we seriously have a lot of discussions simultaneously. Guess it just proves how great we are. --SvipTalk 07:07, 27 November 2007 (PST)
 * I've been thinking about a forum, but that sort of takes focus away from other Futurama forums (I'm thinking PEEL, specifically), and my other idea was to team up with PEEL and ask them if they'd want to be our official forum and set up a site partnership kinda thing or something. --Buddy 09:14, 29 November 2007 (PST)
 * Guess it would not hurt to ask. Maybe our wiki could get a subforum there or something.  Eletrothingie did try to set up a board for us, but it is gone now I fear. --SvipTalk 12:11, 29 November 2007 (PST)

maybe we could do this once every 2 months dr zoid berg 14

Vote!
As mentioned on The Main Pages talk page this is a vote fro Svip's CSS which I think we should have.

<span style="font-family:Dungeon,Andy,cursive;color:#ddf;"> Humorbot 0.4

SvipTalk

dr zoidberg 14

Robo puppy girl

Woo! I'm popular! Go Bender, go Bender, go Bender. --SvipTalk 12:25, 1 December 2007 (PST)
 * Guess you are looks like we're just waiting on 2 votes,dumb dumb away - <span style="font-family:Dungeon,Andy,cursive;color:#ddf;"> Humorbot 0.4  [[Image:Planet_Express_Logo.png|20px]] 13:31, 1 December 2007 (PST)
 * Now this wiki is what I call style - <span style="font-family:Dungeon,Andy,cursive;color:#ddf;"> Humorbot 0.4  [[Image:Planet_Express_Logo.png|20px]] 07:38, 4 December 2007 (PST)
 * You don't have to wait for unanimity. It's pretty obvious you won't be getting a negative vote. --Buddy 10:58, 11 December 2007 (PST)

500!
Whta an achievement 500 now well done - <span style="font-family:Dungeon,Andy,cursive;color:#ddf;"> Humorbot 0.4   05:09, 1 December 2007 (PST) were half way there dr zoidberg 14 (great line mirkin)

Infosphere Pic in Page
Umm, could you please get the image of the Infosphere out of the background of pages. It makes the text look darkended and makes it look ugly in my opinion. --MasterShake 19:17, 28 December 2007 (PST)
 * That is going to be a decision we make later on. We are still sort of discussion in the CSS.  For discussions of it, please check MediaWiki Talk:Monobook.css. --SvipTalk 03:15, 29 December 2007 (PST)

why did we do it in the first place? dr zoidberg 14
 * We were trying to look classy like the HRWiki does, with the light background pics, but I don't think ours is quite faded enough. Or something. I can't tell exactly what's wrong, but I agree it doesn't quite look right. But at the same time, I don't think we should scrap it entirely; I think it can still be re-worked. --Buddy 13:22, 30 December 2007 (PST)